8 - Magistrate Class

[17:01]  Jarvis Quan: I would like to thank everyone for coming.
[17:02]  Jarvis Quan: For those of you new to the classes they are informal and discussion based.
[17:02]  Jarvis Quan: Brownie points for anyone who can correct me especially with quotes.
[17:03]  Jarvis Quan: Just before I start since last class I came across a quote again I like a lot and I thought I'd just share it to sort of start things out.
[17:03]  SnapDragon Tigerpaw chuckles.
[17:03]  Jarvis Quan: "I have never been too clear as to the grounds on which the disputes of scribes are to be adjudicated, and it is not too infrequently that both disputants leave the field each fully convinced that he has had the best of the contest. In differences among members of my own caste, that of the Warriors, it is easier to tell who has carried the day, for the defeated one often lies wounded or slain at the victor's feet. In the contests of scribes, on the other hand, the blood that is spilled is invisible and the valiant foemen retire in good order, reviling their enemies and recouping their forces for the next day's campaign."
Page 11 Priest Kings of Gor
[17:06]  Jarvis Quan: This class is designed to be an introduction to the legal branches of the scribe caste for beginners.
[17:06]  Jarvis Quan: Of neccessity then it will be light on details.
[17:06]  Jarvis Quan: My hope is to arouse interest in this sector so that apprentices might consider making this their particular field of choice.
[17:07]  Jarvis Quan: I am currently taking course at the Gorean Legal Academy and enjoying those very much so hopefully I will soon be officially certfied by them.
[17:07]  Jarvis Quan: As scribes a lot of us end up in career paths in Gor for that reason it seems. No one else would do them and they needed to be done.
[17:08]  Jarvis Quan: I do not consider myself an expert on the topic.
[17:08]  Jarvis Quan: I invite any of you here today to leap in with corrections or clarifications If you catch me in an error.
[17:08]  Jarvis Quan: You will not be able to walk out after class today and be magistrates.
[17:08]  Jarvis Quan: I will begin with the famous quote I suspect we all know well.
[17:09]  Jarvis Quan: There is a saying on Gor that the laws of a city extend no further than its walls.
[17:09]  Jarvis Quan: In fact that is not really correct.
[17:09]  Jarvis Quan: There are four branches of laws used in determining laws and administration of justice
[17:09]  Jarvis Quan: A good magistrate needs to be aware of all four of these, to have a solid undestanding of them and some of these do transcend the mere walls of cities.
[17:09]  Jarvis Quan: The four branches of law are:
[17:09]  Jarvis Quan: a. Initiates Laws
[17:09]  Jarvis Quan: b. City laws
[17:10]  Jarvis Quan: c. Merchant laws
[17:10]  Jarvis Quan: d. Caste codes
[17:10]  Jarvis Quan: So within a city a certain weapon might be outlawed for example.
[17:10]  Jarvis Quan: However it might be permissable under the warrior codes for a warrior to have such a weapon.
[17:10]  Jarvis Quan: In that case a magistrate would need to take acount of the caste codes of the warrior AND city laws if making a determination on an issue involving a warrior.
[17:11]  Jarvis Quan: The same might be true of a physician for example.
[17:11]  Jarvis Quan: Enforcement and interpretation of a city law conflciting with a caste code would be extremely difficult and need to be decided on a case by case basis.
[17:11]  Jarvis Quan: In general I think a wise High Council would not create such a conflict.
[17:11]  Jarvis Quan: City law will supercede caste code, as caste codes are adjudicated within the caste, and City laws must be adjudicated by a Magistrate. For example, Vonda has a law that visiting rarii are not permitted a crossbow in the walls. Though the Crossbow is a common weapon among tarnsmen.
[17:11]  Nietuss Welles is Offline
[17:12]  Jarvis Quan: SO it can happen.
[17:12]  Jarvis Quan: So one could debate that sim laws cannot overrule codes.
[17:12]  Jarvis Quan: However the codes themselves are open to interpretation and are not clearly outlined in the Books.
[17:13]  Dartagnan McMillan smile
[17:13]  Jarvis Quan: Another example: many of the physicians believe their caste code requires they not carry weapons.
[17:13]  Jarvis Quan: However other physicians will strenously declare this is nonsense.
[17:13]  Jarvis Quan: if you are a magistrate ruling on a city law that requires all Free Men to carry weapons and defend the city, you would better off knowing the physician caste codes of your city before you arrest the physician who does not carry weapons.
[17:13]  Imriel Swordthain: Are caste codes standardized throughout Gor?
[17:13]  Jarvis Quan: No.
[17:14]  Jarvis Quan: They vary from city to city and even from person to person within a city.
[17:14]  Jarvis Quan: Now if Vonda had a law that all visiting free women had to unveil in order to assure their identity, that's a matter of law conflicting with custom. That's when a magistrate's judgment would intervene, review circumstances, and precedent, and make a decision.
[17:14]  Jarvis Quan: Vonda does not require veils, it is recommended but not required.
[17:14]  Jarvis Quan: I would NOT ask a Lady to remove a veil.
[17:15]  Jarvis Quan: In fact in Vonda it is a crime to face strip uless you are a Prefect.
[17:15]  Jarvis Quan: I really do not think it can be clear cut and obvious in all cases. A magistrate must know laws and customs and codes well beyond just the city laws.
[17:15]  Jarvis Quan: Or be someone who is diplomatic, open to hearing all sides and making reasoned decisions.
[17:16]  Jarvis Quan: City Magistrates need to  judge situation based on both city laws and caste codes and custom.
[17:16]  Jarvis Quan: This is one reason why being a magistrate can seem arbitrary.
[17:16]  Jarvis Quan: Much of it is situational.
[17:16]  Jarvis Quan: Certainly in those few instances in the book where we see magistrates at work they act more like mediators and judges than police officers.
[17:17]  Jarvis Quan: They also often act as educators, reminding people of the laws as well.
[17:17]  Jarvis Quan: Their mere presence enough to ensure everyone check themselves
[17:17]  Jarvis Quan: So yes, There is a saying on Gor that the laws of a city extend no further than its walls.
[17:17]  Jarvis Quan: However it ain't neccessarily so.
[17:18]  Jarvis Quan: I would now like to discuss names of these people.
[17:18]  Jarvis Quan: Again as in so much of the material in the books, there is no set name or precise job description.
[17:18]  Jarvis Quan: In addition to magistrates we have terms like praetor, prefect, archon to name a few.
[17:18]  Jarvis Quan: In some situations and cities it would seem that the Praetor is the same as what is commonly known as Chief magistrate
[17:18]  Jarvis Quan: In Others the Praetor is a specific role at a higher level, like a judge in an appeals court on Earth.
[17:19]  Jarvis Quan: I think there is nothing wrong with us defining these terms for our particular cities or Confederations and in fact it is useful to do so. However if one chooses to do so it is still, in my opinion, an interpretation of what is in the books.
[17:19]  Jarvis Quan: magistrates are commonly accompanied by "guards" which are presumed to be warriors.
[17:19]  Jarvis Quan: The "guards" enforce the magistorial decisions.
[17:20]  Jarvis Quan: Prefect seems to be a term interchangeable with magistrate
[17:20]  SnapDragon Tigerpaw: @
[17:20]  Jarvis Quan: yes Lady?
[17:21]  SnapDragon Tigerpaw: Would these guards be loyal to the Magistrate, hmm say in SL when people hop homestones like they change their socks?
[17:21]  Jarvis Quan: Good question!
[17:21]  SnapDragon Tigerpaw: or would they be of the homestone itself.
[17:21]  Jarvis Quan: My feeling is that the warriors of the city go with the magistrate of the city.
[17:21]  SnapDragon Tigerpaw nods.
[17:21]  Jarvis Quan: But private guards were so common in Gor it would easily be the magistrate hires them.
[17:22]  Jarvis Quan: There is the lengthy scene on the docks in explorer where a dock "prefect" adjudicates the matter of a female theif.
[17:22]  Jarvis Quan: Hears all sides issue orders, sends warriors hunting.
[17:22]  Jarvis Quan: From that we assume that the prefect has the right to order warriors in matter of law.
[17:22]  Jarvis Quan: In that case the prefect was acting exactly like a magistrate and ruling on merchant law as well as city law.
[17:23]  Jarvis Quan: Which brings me to the next point-clearly there are two kinds of magistrates,
[17:23]  Jarvis Quan: Merchant magistrates and city magistrates.
[17:23]  Jarvis Quan: Merchant law is determined each year in Sardar at the fairs.
[17:23]  Jarvis Quan: And this is another point of huge debate.
[17:23]  Jarvis Quan: Is a magistrate always a scribe? Or could a magsitrate be appointed, for example can a merchant become a merchant magistrate?
[17:24]  Jarvis Quan: I would say that most often, scribes take these roles because they are most likely to have the training and experience to make them qualified
[17:24]  Jarvis Quan: However I think it may be that in certain circumstance someone who is especially qualified even though not a scribe could take that role.
[17:24]  Jarvis Quan: I personally have not found a clear quote that says magsitrates MUST be scribes only and only scribes can take magisterial posts. I welcome correction.
[17:25]  Jarvis Quan: White is color of justice in Gor, magistrates wear robes that are white with purple trim.
[17:25]  Jarvis Quan: merchant magistrates are described as wearing white robes with both purple and gold trim
[17:25]  Jarvis Quan: Purple seems to be associated with power as Ubars with absolutel power wear purple.
[17:26]  Jarvis Quan: So purple trim is an indication of power.
[17:26]  Jarvis Quan: Also there are levels of prefects/magistates, junior ones senior ones with differing levels of authority.
[17:26]  Jarvis Quan: Here is the exact quote
[17:26]  Jarvis Quan: In a moment or two, I stopped a few yards from a registration desk. There one of Ina's pursuers, I recognized him from earlier, was making inquiries of one of the five camp prefects, fellows under the camp praetor. The perfects are identified by five slash marks, alternately blue and yellow, the slavers' colors, on their left sleeve, the praetor himself by nine such stripes, and lesser officials by three. Turning about, apparently alerted by the prefect's notice, the fellow with one hand suddenly turned the prefect's desk to its side so that it stood wall-like between us, and hurried behind it.
---Vagabonds of Gor, 47:453-454
[17:27]  Jarvis Quan: I just wanted to finish up by discussing common punishments.
[17:27]  Jarvis Quan: In general the punishment for just about everything seemed to be death for men and enslavement for women.
[17:27]  Jarvis Quan: Some less harsh punishments seem to be things like cutting off the hand of the perpetrator.
[17:27]  Jarvis Quan: enslavement for debt
[17:28]  Jarvis Quan: Also sentences seemed to be carried out immediately with little recourse to appeal.
[17:28]  Jarvis Quan: A magistrate could order a woman enslaved and she was stripped on the spot, hauled off to jail and branded and sold within an hour or so.
[17:28]  Jarvis Quan: So the magistrate would seem to have enormous power and little accountability.
[17:28]  Jarvis Quan: Her protectors might have something to say about it after the fact which may be why they had guards.
[17:29]  Jarvis Quan: However this would fit with the general way life was run in Gor.
[17:29]  Jarvis Quan: I cannot imagine someone sentenced to death spending eight years on death row running through various appeals in Gor.
[17:29]  Jarvis Quan: This may seem brutal but I remind you that the books are very specific that there was no mental illness in Gor so people who broke laws knew what the doing and could not claim they were the product of broken homes or failed society.
[17:30]  Imriel Swordthain: @
[17:30]  Jarvis Quan: Yes?
[17:30]  Imriel Swordthain: Are magistrates compelled by higher authority, ie, Ubar, etc., to make a specific ruling or decision?
[17:30]  Jarvis Quan: hm....good question
[17:31]  Imriel Swordthain: I know that integrity is a tenet of the scribe caste..... so.....
[17:31]  Jarvis Quan: Given the kind of power an ubar had, if a magistrate were to make a ruling the ubar didn't like I suspect he would simply order the magistrate imapled.
[17:31]  Imriel Swordthain: nods
[17:31]  Jarvis Quan: Adminstrators also seemed to have power to overrule magistrates in some cases.
[17:32]  Jarvis Quan: However I think by-in-large magistrates were independant and had power.
[17:32]  Jarvis Quan: certainly over ordinary folk
[17:32]  Jarvis Quan: So when I act as a magistrate to do the following
[17:32]  Jarvis Quan: I first consult the laws of the city.
[17:33]  Jarvis Quan: I then ask those who have been around longer than me how past cases were adjudicated.
[17:33]  Jarvis Quan: Then I use my own best guess as to what would fit with justice.
[17:33]  Imriel Swordthain: @
[17:33]  Jarvis Quan: Yes?
[17:34]  Imriel Swordthain: Is it common for magistrates to compile past decisions in a city... i.e., case law into libraries?
[17:34]  Jarvis Quan: It is my hope that each city would do that and that seems to be the specific job of the "archon"
[17:34]  Jarvis Quan: Unfortuantely most cities don't seem to in SL.
[17:34]  Imriel Swordthain: Thank you... I apologize for using more than my share of questions...
[17:35]  Jarvis Quan: Oh not a problem questions keep the session interesting.
[17:35]  Jarvis Quan: I personally use a Google a lot to find specific quotes but I ALWAYS cross check quotes in the books. Too many pull quotes out of context.
[17:36]  Jarvis Quan: So beware the quote unless you have read the whole page in which it sists.
[17:36]  Jarvis Quan: I have the books as searchable PDFs to cross check specific quotes.
[17:36]  Jarvis Quan: And I am working on putting them into a single word document.
[17:36]  Imriel Swordthain: ... (I do have one last question.... ducks)
[17:36]  Jarvis Quan: certianly
[17:36]  Jarvis Quan: what is it?
[17:37]  Imriel Swordthain: Do magistrates have the power legally to compel testimony, request, I suppose in SL: chatlogs, etc.?? Take affidavits from cmplainants, and compile a case in that manner?
[17:37]  SnapDragon Tigerpaw: *an people think me crazy for doing the cross reference with the books *grins*
[17:38]  Jarvis Quan: Well chatlogs are extremely problematic for two reasons.
[17:38]  Jarvis Quan: well three
[17:38]  Jarvis Quan: 1) Unless all parties agree, it is a violation of ToS to share or read them.
[17:38]  Jarvis Quan: In the behavioural expectations section community standards.
[17:39]  Jarvis Quan: 2) It is ridiculously easy to change logs, forge them, or pass off OOC IM as open chat IC.
[17:39]  Jarvis Quan: 3) If you ask for logs you're going to spend all your Linden time reading logs.
[17:39]  Jarvis Quan: People tend to say she insulted me!
[17:40]  Imriel Swordthain: wow.... I am glad I asked that. Thank you.
[17:40]  Jarvis Quan: then pass you ten pages of logs.
[17:40]  Jarvis Quan: and you say what was so insulting?
[17:40]  Jarvis Quan: They say "read the logs"
[17:40]  Imriel Swordthain: :-)
[17:40]  Jarvis Quan: duh......
[17:40]  SnapDragon Tigerpaw: I also find that its not realistic to ask for chat logs.. as stories change with time in rl, they will also here..
[17:40]  Jarvis Quan: I take testimony ask people to tell me in their owns words.
[17:41]  Jarvis Quan: I use Bob's Rules of moderation.
[17:41]  Jarvis Quan: I also have found the Blue Caste of Gor group to be the best single resource.
[17:41]  Jarvis Quan: If you don't know how to handle a case you say you need to retire to consider things.
[17:42]  Jarvis Quan: You ask in IM and about ten people usually answer.
[17:42]  Jarvis Quan: A huge debate starts.
[17:42]  Jarvis Quan: But eventually someone has the quote you need.
[17:42]  Jarvis Quan: Or knows how to help you find it.
[17:43]  Jarvis Quan: Also no matter what you decide someone will call you an ass, invoke Cartman's law and walk.
[17:43]  Imriel Swordthain: :-)
[17:43]  Jarvis Quan: Does everyone know Cartman's Law?
[17:43]  Dartagnan McMillan: no
[17:43]  Tygera Dryke: no
[17:43]  Archon Lionheart: laughs.
[17:43]  Jarvis Quan: An abrupt withdrawal from RP, usually evidenced by surliness, swearing and stomping away when things don't go exactly the way one wants. cf., Eric Cartman, of SouthPark cartoon, who always says, when things don't go according to his mental plan, "SCREW you guys I'm goin HOME."
[17:43]  phyllyt49 Hush: no
[17:43]  Dartagnan McMillan: ok
[17:43]  Tygera Dryke laughs
[17:44]  Jarvis Quan: The Jarvis Quan response to invocation of Cartman's Law is
"Don't let our gate hit you in the butt on your way out of the Vonda.
[17:44]  Jarvis Quan: If you are a slave you get fed to the gate sleen.
[17:44]  Archon Lionheart: last one died of clogged arteries.
[17:44]  Imriel Swordthain: "Please click ctrl-Q to submit an appeal." ;-)
[17:44]  Jarvis Quan: laughing
[17:45]  Tygera Dryke: you see that alot also as a green people invoking cartman's law
[17:45]  Jarvis Quan: Yes that last slave girl almost killed me poor sleen.
[17:44]  Archon Lionheart: last one died of clogged arteries.
[17:44]  Imriel Swordthain: "Please click ctrl-Q to submit an appeal." ;-)
[17:44]  Jarvis Quan: laughing
[17:45]  Tygera Dryke: you see that alot also as a green people invoking cartman's law
[17:45]  Jarvis Quan: Yes that last slave girl almost killed me poor sleen.
[17:45]  Jarvis Quan: she was something else.
[17:46]  Jarvis Quan: Now I recently found the Legal Academy of Gor.
[17:46]  Jarvis Quan: I am taking their courses and enjoying them very much.
[17:46]  SnapDragon Tigerpaw: aii..
[17:46]  Jarvis Quan: I am currently taking the Advocate class.
[17:46]  Jarvis Quan: This allows you to learn how to present and defend or prosecute a case.
[17:47]  Archon Lionheart: great class.
[17:47]  Jarvis Quan: They also have a series in being the judge
[17:47]  Jarvis Quan: I very highly recommend them if you wish to study this branch.
[17:48]  Jarvis Quan: Anzhela Dyrssen is their Chief Magistrate and a brilliant woman.
[17:48]  Archon Lionheart: here..here!
[17:48]  Jarvis Quan: So I will declare the class over so people can go but invite anyone who wishes to stay on ti talk to do so.
[17:48]  Jarvis Quan: Also invite any frther questions or comments.
[17:49]  Jarvis Quan: Thank you everyone for coming.
[17:49]  Dartagnan McMillan: Yeah i had a question
[17:49]  Archon Lionheart: Thank you Jarvis
[17:49]  Jarvis Quan: Yes?
[17:49]  Dartagnan McMillan: aint sure if its the right place to ask but, its about collars
[17:49]  phyllyt49 Hush: Thankyou Jarvis excellent class
[17:49]  DAKOTA Jashan: thank you sir
[17:49]  Tygera Dryke: Thank you Jarvis for allowing me to sit in on this class
[17:49]  Imriel Swordthain: Thank you very much, yes.
[17:50]  Archon Lionheart: love the collar debates.
[17:50]  Dartagnan McMillan: is there quote to what was done, in term of justice to slaves who changed ownership?
[17:50]  Jarvis Quan: If anyone would like to be added to the group specific to this set of classes or the Blue Caste of Gor group please let me know.
[17:50]  WOLF Goldfarb: Thank you Jarvis excellent class
[17:50]  Jarvis Quan: oh stinky one
[17:50]  Archon Lionheart: what were the circumstances Dartagnon??
[17:50]  Jarvis Quan: slaves just didn't do that in the books
[17:50]  Jarvis Quan: they were property, end of story
[17:51]  Shoshawna Dharma: @
[17:51]  Jarvis Quan: here we have to deal with OOC crap all the time and slave cases get SO messy.
[17:51]  Imriel Swordthain: I received the notice for this class via the Blue Caste... you say there is another group?
[17:51]  Jarvis Quan: Well there is a group specific to just this set of classes but I always also put it in the Blue Caste fo Gor group.
[17:52]  Dartagnan McMillan: em...i didnt mean it on the slave "initiative", like city raided, slave got captured, but was owned by a nother, so to make the slave yours, is there no legal step?
[17:52]  Jarvis Quan: ah
[17:52]  Shoshawna Dharma: Please? May I get a transcript of the class since I came in late? Also, a copy of this lovely chart would be nice.
[17:52]  Jarvis Quan: well if you city requires you to do it you register the papers.
[17:52]  Imriel Swordthain: So I would be covered then, so far as receiving notice for these classes?
[17:52]  Jarvis Quan: The chart is up for sale.
[17:52]  Jarvis Quan: the texture is inside it.
[17:53]  Jarvis Quan: transcript I can give you as well.
[17:53]  Jarvis Quan: If you are in the Blue Caste yes.
[17:53]  Shoshawna Dharma: Thank you so much.