Advocates Class 12July2011

[18:03]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Tal and welcome to the 6pm class of the Advocates Course. I am Xavian Stratten and for those that don't know me I am the Admin of Nyuki Village and been in Gor nearly 23 years now with over 15 in RPGs of some sort or another.
[18:04]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): I would like to thank Lady Janette for putting this course together and hope you will all enjoy it and learn from it. If you have a question just indicate such with a @ sign
[18:04]  janette Inglewood smiles
[18:04]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Also if you would remove any meters and scripted objects would be appreciated
[18:05]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): This course is different from the Magistrates course as it will teach you how to be an Advocate, Litigator, or Lawyer
[18:06]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): We will be concentrating on trials as you will still need to know the Gorean Law and gorean methods but in all its about applying the law in different ways
[18:07]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): the majority of Gorean trials are heard by a Magistrate and rarely by Jury not to mention in SL its hard to do jury trials but it can happen
[18:08]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Like Lady Janette don't irk the Magistrate lol. Don't shout and over talk someone but wait your turn nor be long winded or lecture the law to the Magistrate, big no no
[18:08]  janette Inglewood nods
[18:09]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): any questions so far?
[18:09]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): smiles
[18:09]  Kaddee Beattie (kaddee.caiben): @
[18:09]  Sherman Easterwood shakes head no and smiles
[18:09]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Aye Lady Kaddee
[18:09]  Kaddee Beattie (kaddee.caiben): Can FW be on a jury? or is it just FM?
[18:10]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): in Jury trials it was not covered well in the books but I say yes to FW because they are normally of the High Caste but it will really fall upon the Magistrates wishes and those of the city the trial is in
[18:11]  janette Inglewood: @
[18:11]  Kaddee Beattie (kaddee.caiben) nods softly
[18:11]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Aye Janette
[18:11]  janette Inglewood: i agree it is up to the Magistrate.....the only clear book ref refers to bribing jurors
[18:12]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): indeed
[18:13]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Janette has provided some good case studies for the course which we will cover during the 8 weeks of this course
[18:13]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): You can use book quotes to a point but best in my opinion to take that quote and make it your own words to prove a point
[18:14]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Now lets look how a typical trial works and the parties involved
[18:15]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): We will all take different roles in this course from Magistrate, Defense and Prosecution including witnesses and defendants
[18:17]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Each court room is different as it is based on the Magistrates own way of doing thing but like Lady Janette I follow the "Law & Order" style, Prosecution presents its opening statements followed by the Defense then witnesses are called for the Prosecution then the Denfense will cross examine the witness till all are heard from for the Prosecution then the Defense presents its witnesses with cross from the Prosecution
[18:18]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Unlike what you may have seen on Earth there is no due process nor disclosure of evidence from one side to the other
[18:18]  Sherman Easterwood: @
[18:18]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Aye sir
[18:19]  Sherman Easterwood: What if there is a trail without Prosecution and Defense.....only the accused and Magistrate
[18:19]  Sherman Easterwood: *trial
[18:20]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): That can happen but in most cases an Advocate is called to help at least with the defense
[18:20]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): If a slave is questioned then you would also call upon a member of the Torturer Clan to help with aht
[18:21]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): that*
[18:21]  Kaddee Beattie (kaddee.caiben): @
[18:21]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Aye Lady
[18:21]  Sherman Easterwood nods
[18:22]  Kaddee Beattie (kaddee.caiben): I ran across in one of the books long ago.. that slaves were not allowed into the actual courtroom? And that some scribes were used to torture slave confesses for trials or for the Magsitrate
[18:22]  Kaddee Beattie (kaddee.caiben): Is any of these correct?
[18:23]  Trynda Writer: @
[18:24]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): That would fall upon the Magistrate if they allow the slaves in the courtroom unlike an Initiate Temple where they are strictly prohibited. As for questioning it is known to be done by the Clan of Tortures and not a normal Free such as me.
[18:24]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Trynda?
[18:24]  Trynda Writer: How admissible is a slaves testimony?? I mean even under torture... slaves lie for their Masters.. Vella lied, incriminating tarl at the directtionof Ibn Saran, her master
[18:25]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): @
[18:26]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten) nods "A slave is not to lie but again they are human and can be killed. The CoT is known for their tactics to get the truth out normally"
[18:26]  janette Inglewood: @
[18:26]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Acilia?
[18:28]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): In tribesman the slaves were put on stretching racks. There wasn't someone from the CoT. I can't see there being someone from the CoT being readily available at any given trial when a slave is giving testimony. Sorry for being long winded, but I've also seen a slave under torture lie in court. Why? because her master would have killed her later if she didn't lie for him
[18:29]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Very true and in SL Gor the COT are hard to find in most cases so it would then fall upon the Magistrate to use his or her best judgment to allow such and under what circumstances
[18:29]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Janette?
[18:30]  janette Inglewood: Yes...pf course if there isnt one available then use someone else....a Warrior for example.....also
[18:30]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): indeed
[18:31]  janette Inglewood: i wouldnt convict a Free solely on the testimony of a slave
[18:31]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): amen
[18:31]  Trynda Writer: amen to that
[18:31]  Paul Susa: Aiii well spoken
[18:31]  Sherman Easterwood nods in agreement
[18:31]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): @
[18:32]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): In 23 years of studying the Gor books there is on that that is consistent and that is Norman was not Consistent and in the later books somethings were way off from the first books. As Janette said, a slaves testimony is not much to convict a Free on honestly
[18:32]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Acilia?
[18:32]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): Would you Xavian or Lady Janette arrest someone on the sole testimony of a slave ?
[18:32]  Trynda Writer waits for this one
[18:32]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Nope
[18:32]  Trynda Writer whispers: I KNEW IT
[18:32]  Trynda Writer puts her hands over her mouth
[18:32]  janette Inglewood: unlikely....i would investigate....but not arrest
[18:32]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Would you?
[18:33]  Trynda Writer: would I .. no but I have been
[18:33]  Sherman Easterwood: @
[18:33]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): Never.
[18:33]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): nods
[18:33]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Sir?
[18:33]  Paul Susa: @
[18:34]  Sherman Easterwood: In the trials I have had....I have not allowed any slave testimony due to the unreliability....I use them only in investigation and to get leads but not used in my decision
[18:35]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Aye, as I said that falls upon the Magistrates wishes and work habits
[18:35]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Paul?
[18:35]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): @
[18:35]  Paul Susa: I would probably kill the slave first then investigate. Unless their owner brught the complaint and ws sufficiently convinced to do so.
[18:35]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): nods
[18:36]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Acilia?
[18:36]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): What if a magistrate arrests someone on the spot in the courtroom based on a slave's testimony OR what if the magistrate gives a ruling that relied heavily on the slave's testimony? Can a new magistrate be requested?
[18:36]  Trynda Writer: Ooh good question
[18:37]  Kaddee Beattie (kaddee.caiben): very good question indeed
[18:37]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Appeals can be made to the Ubar or Admin based on that and let him decide to issue a new trail but in my opinion if a Magistrate did that in either case he or she would be laughed at by many Free IMHO
[18:38]  Trynda Writer nods
[18:38]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Now lets move forward
[18:38]  janette Inglewood: yes...or appeal to the High Magistrate
[18:38]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): @
[18:38]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Aye Lady?
[18:38]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): LOL sorry))
[18:39]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): What if a city was recently taken over and there were no magistrates appointed to their position BUT there was a ruler of sorts...like a regent or admin. Then who would act as the magistrate?
[18:39]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): normally a Magistrate would be called in from an ally city to hear the case
[18:39]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): that has happened to me often
[18:40]  Trynda Writer: @
[18:40]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): So it would be unlikely that the regent or admin would stand in as magistrate? so WHAT if he does? What if he doesn't call for an ally's help?
[18:40]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): oops
[18:40]  Trynda Writer: oh nvm
[18:40]  Trynda Writer: she got it
[18:41]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): I have not come across that yet but normally the Magistrate is called in but if not you can demand to be heard by one and have an Advocate at your side
[18:41]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): ........
[18:41]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): if the Admin or Regent is not fair and allowing such then you might want to seek a new home ~Laughs
[18:41]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape) thinks more like IC revenge!
[18:42]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): The ones I have encountered are fair to the most part allowing such
[18:42]  Trynda Writer ties acilia's fingers together to keep her from doing the @
[18:42]  janette Inglewood chuckles
[18:42]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): #
[18:42]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): smirks
[18:42]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): oi vey!
[18:42]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): -Laughs
[18:42]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): ((ok i REALLY dono't have a question this time...please continue...))
[18:42]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): but normally you will get a fair trail
[18:43]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): This course will teach you from different views how to handle the rp including roles such as Magistrate, Defense and Prosecution to Defendants and witnesses
[18:43]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Our first case study which I will pass out now is our first trial next Tuesday
[18:44]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Every one get it? I know Janette has it -Laughs
[18:44]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): Yes, thank you
[18:44]  Trynda Writer: yes, thanks
[18:44]  Sherman Easterwood: got it
[18:45]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Ok what I am going to do is assign roles now. If you can't make it next week let me know but try to be here if you can yet we know how that RL thing creeps up -Laughs
[18:45]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Sherman will you be the Magistrate please
[18:45]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Trynda the Prosecution
[18:45]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Acilia the FW in this case
[18:46]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): YESSSSSSSSSSSS
[18:46]  Trynda Writer: yesssssss
[18:46]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Azeia the Defense Advocate
[18:46]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): qahri you will be a witness for the procecution
[18:47]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Sir Paul Witness for the Defense
[18:47]  Paul Susa: Aii
[18:47]  tresha Perl: tptower
[18:47]   ДzȼiД کtrąttȼռ (azeia.serpente): aye dear
[18:47]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): If you did not get a role this time don't worry, more cases to be heard
[18:47]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): wait!
[18:47]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): who's my FC?
[18:47]  tresha Perl: tptower
[18:48]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Kaddee is the FM / FC then -Winks
[18:48]  tresha Perl: tptower
[18:48]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape) winks to Kaddee
[18:48]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): qahri you would be a Free in this case
[18:48]  Kaddee Beattie (kaddee.caiben) chuckles.. then mutters.. "supper on time " winks to my "RP FC for the trial"
[18:48]  tresha Perl: Greetings Master
[18:48]  Kallista (qahri): yes my Master
[18:49]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): chuckles
[18:50]  janette Inglewood: those who are attending both times of the classes....you will be surprised just how differently the trials can go
[18:50]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape) whistles
[18:50]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): The case study you have is not 100% full of information but take what you are given and build your case, use npc witnesses if need be and we will do the trail next week. I would like to do a trail each week and some might go over the 1 hour time frame
[18:51]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): We will end the course with a High Profile Treason case which should be fun ... well not for the one impaled if that happens
[18:52]  Trynda Writer slaps Acilia's hands
[18:52]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): I'll step up to the plate if need be....or pike...however ya look at it.
[18:52]  Trynda Writer: damn it
[18:52]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): -Laughs
[18:52]  Trynda Writer: i wasn't fast enough on the slap
[18:52]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): I have more questions....I know surprise...please tell me when I can ask them lol
[18:52]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Any other questions ?
[18:52]  Trynda Writer: noooo
[18:52]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): OH GOODIE
[18:52]  Trynda Writer: noooo
[18:52]   ДzȼiД کtrąttȼռ (azeia.serpente): i have an implament pike
[18:52]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): @
[18:52]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Acilia
[18:53]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): Say for example a worker of the city is not happy about the new administration's pay. Can a worker take the administrator to court? is that even possible?
[18:53]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): A low caste?
[18:53]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): No...High Caste...so for example....
[18:54]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): Oh let's say a physician's home stone was recently taken over...new powers to be came into place and took over all the high positions...
[18:54]  janette Inglewood laughs having done this course for 2 years and never having had that question
[18:54]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): And the new pay was just horribly not to her liking!
[18:54]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Well typically like in RL the Admin should not be bragging about his pay to others
[18:54]  janette Inglewood: sound like Caste matters to me
[18:54]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): Let me be more specific without giving away that this is me we're talking about...
[18:55]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): aye and not even covered by Merchant Law
[18:55]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): The new administrator says that the physician is to earn her pay by charging all patients a fee. Well its the green caste's CODE that they do NOT charge patients of their own HOme Stone
[18:56]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): now that is a valid point
[18:56]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): So what are my options *coughs* I mean...HER options
[18:56]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): I am sure there is a case there given what you have told me but more research would be needed
[18:57]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Do this FW have a Magistrate in her city?
[18:57]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): Not yet!
[18:57]  Trynda Writer: no they are in class
[18:57]  Trynda Writer: as we speak
[18:57]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): learning
[18:57]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): -Laughs
[18:57]  Trynda Writer: or so we heard
[18:57]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): they are baby blues
[18:57]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): nods
[18:57]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): have you presented your agument to the Admin about the Codes and charging?
[18:58]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): Oh yes! I mean...SHE has! And the reply was ...well the admin mused if the lady would like to go to court again. I'm thinking she's going to say YES
[18:58]  Trynda Writer: all hypothetical
[18:59]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape) nods sagely
[18:59]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): well let me say this and again my own opinion... the "Codes" that the Greens go by is an onlinism for there are no written codes in the books honestly just like in my opinion even a green can be armed because they were in the books to a point therefore I don't see why you can't charge a fee to the ones of your Homestone
[19:00]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): That's a good point. I'll have to see where or why that code is in place.
[19:00]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape) elbows Trynda for her question
[19:00]  Trynda Writer: oh oh .. @ @
[19:00]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): it is again an onlism because there are no codes in the books and like the codes doctors in RL charge do they not?
[19:00]  Trynda Writer: not in Canada
[19:00]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): I think that is a mighty fine point Xavian. I like it a lot.
[19:00]  Trynda Writer: Gov. pays
[19:00]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): damn I am moving there
[19:01]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): but honestly Lady I would charge because there is nothing in the books that says you can't
[19:01]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): I doubt Lady Kaiila will fuss
[19:02]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Lady Trynda?
[19:02]  Trynda Writer: well there goes that hypothetical trial
[19:02]  Acilia Rubellius (safarri.dreamscape): :)
[19:04]  Trynda Writer: OH .. mine.. yes.. well ... this goes back to the previous question.. about a Regent acting as a magistrate .. someone I know who may or may not be close to me.. was recently .. thrown in jail and within no time .. hauled out by the Regent and sentenced.. Does she have a right to call out for an advocate and fight her sentencing
[19:04]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): aye that is her or his right
[19:04]  Sherman Easterwood: @
[19:04]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Sir?
[19:04]  Trynda Writer: how would I .. she go about it .. if there is no Magistrate tho
[19:04]  Trynda Writer: oops
[19:05]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): go to the Ubar/Admin and ask for one
[19:05]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): if he is fair then they will allow it
[19:05]  Sherman Easterwood: I thought it was up to the Magistrate to decide if an advocate could be called or not....I would probably allow it but is there really "rights" in Gor and if so where are they found in the books?
[19:06]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): good point and there are no quotes that come to mind on that but in my opinion if he allows it then he would be seen as a fair Magistrate and not a tyrant persay
[19:07]  Sherman Easterwood: I agrree totally was just thrown by the use of the word "rights"
[19:07]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): I have done cases both ways but normally in that case the defendent argued his own case
[19:07]  Sherman Easterwood nods
[19:08]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten) whispers: as the books say, "Gor is harsh and the laws covered in the books are not 100% clear but a few of them such as Merchant Law.
[19:08]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): that is where rp meets common sense using some and only some RL laws/cases IMHO
[19:09]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Anything else?
[19:10]  Zandros Stratten (xavian.stratten): Then I would like to thank you all for coming and Lady Janette for her knowledge along with ~Points Up~ Judge Judy's overlooking. Class Dismissed. I will be sending out this lecture to the group along with other information provided by Lady Jan